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Sidekick Sessions, Productivity Spotlight – What’s Your Chronotype with Kristin Graham

August 16, 2023

Are there times during the day when you’re just on fire – cranking out reports, getting things done? And then, are there times you mentally crash? The good news is it happens to all of us, and it all has to do with a concept called chronotypes. 

Chronotypes describe when during the day our brains are most and least productive. We’ve all heard people described as “early birds” and “night owls.” Well, it’s a scientific truth, and the more you know about it, the more successful you can be at work and home. 

That’s the topic of this month’s Sidekick Sessions, where we gather the team responsible for producing the podcast and talk with a previous guest on the show to uncover new learning and ways we can put it to work. A new Sidekick Sessions episode drops every third Wednesday of the month. 

The sidekicks are Alysse Bryson, VP of community development for BEATS WORKING & WORKP2P; Tamar Medford, BEATS WORKING show producer; Elan Olsen, creative manager; Libby Sundgren, content development manager; and BEATS WORKING Host Mark Wright. 

In this episode, word nerd Kristin Graham returns to lead the sidekick team through a lesson on understanding personal and team chronotypes to work smarter and get more done. 

Kristin has led communications and culture at some of the biggest companies in the world and is on a journey to learn and share what she knows to make work better. Here’s to early birds, night owls, and those in between.  

Resources from the episode:  

  1. Learn more about BEATS WORKING and our mission to redeem work here.  

  2. Get to know our Sidekicks and find ways to connect with them here.  

  3. Listen to Kristin’s episode, “Kristin Graham: Lessons From a Word Nerd. My Journey from Expedia to Amazon and Beyond,” here.  

  4. Listen to Kristin’s “Fewer Things Better” podcast here.  

  5. Want to learn more about Chronobiology and how to hack your productivity? Download this free handout. 

  6. Visit Kristin’s Unlock the Brain website to find video lessons to hack a better work experience.  

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Transcript

The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.

Speakers: Kristin Graham, Elan Olsen, Alysse Bryson, Tamar Medford, Libby Sundgren, and Mark Wright

KRISTIN GRAHAM  00:00

So just pay attention to the next time you feel like you’re going super slow and take a look at the clock. That’s going to tell you a lot more than any model or any flowchart because you’ll start to see a pattern. Same when you’re like, oh my gosh, is it this time already? That’s usually an indicator of your cognitive fast lane and you’re going to switch between them and there’s no like set time and it’s going to vary from day to day, but you’ll start to see a rhythm. You are your best focus group, so pay attention to what you’re saying. That’s your best advocate.

MARK WRIGHT  00:34

This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work: the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to Sidekick Sessions. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Sidekick Sessions is a spinoff of our podcast called BEATS WORKING. If you’re new to the podcast, our mission is to redeem work: the word, the place, and the way. In other words, to make work better for everyone. In Sidekick Sessions we gather the team responsible for producing the podcast and we talk with a previous guest from the show to uncover new learning and ways we can put it to work. A new episode of Sidekick Sessions drops every third Wednesday of the month. In this episode, word nerd Kristin Graham returns to lead the sidekick team through a lesson on understanding chronotypes in the workplace. As you can guess by the name, chronotypes describes the differences we have in terms of when during the day our brains are most and least productive. It can have a huge impact on productivity and how teams interact. Kristin has led comms and culture at some of the biggest companies in the world, and she’s on a journey to learn and share what she learns to make work better. So, here’s to early birds, night owls, and everyone in between. Welcome to Sidekick Sessions. This is an offshoot of the BEATS WORKING podcast. It’s so good to have all of you here. If you’re unfamiliar with Sidekick Sessions, basically what we do is we take a fantastic guest that we’ve had in the past, we invite them back. And, uh, with the team here at WORKP2P, we have a discussion on a particular topic. And, uh, joining us is Kristin Graham. She was, uh, one of our awesome guests recently on the BEATS WORKING podcast. She’s a word nerd. She led comms and culture at some of the biggest companies in the world, and she has a podcast called Fewer Things Better. Kristin, it’s great to have you back.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  02:31

Hi, friends. This is exciting.

MARK WRIGHT  02:34

And we’ve got the whole team here. Let’s have the team, uh, introduce themselves, starting with Tamar. Go ahead.

TAMAR MEDFORD  02:41

Hey, everyone. My name’s Tamar Medford, and I am the producer of The BEATS WORKING show. So, I kind of get the, uh, I get to see all the episodes as they take shape.

MARK WRIGHT  02:51

Awesome. Elan.

ELAN OLSEN  02:52

Hello, I am Elan Olsen, and I am your creative sidekick.

MARK WRIGHT  02:59

Libby.

LIBBY SUNDGREN  03:01

I’m Libby Sundgren. I’m the content development manager and a fellow word nerd, Kristin. So happy to have you here.

MARK WRIGHT  03:09

And Alysse.

ALYSSE BRYSON  03:11

My name is Alysse Bryson and I’m the bossy sidekick. I’m technically the vice president of community development.

MARK WRIGHT  03:21

And, uh, I love how Libby called herself a fellow word nerd because, uh, on our team we have a, we’ve turned Libby’s name into a verb. And, uh, we say, have you had the copy Libby-fied yet? And if the answer is no, you gotta send it to Libby to get it tweaked and made better.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  03:38

I love it. I love it.

MARK WRIGHT  03:39

I love it. So, Kristin, so glad that we had, had you back. Um, you do all kinds of consulting and you’re an expert on so many different things that make life and work better. And that’s why we brought you back and you’re going to lead us through a little session on chronobiology. And I think we all kind of have an idea of what that is. And I think everybody on this call is, uh, has dealt with that in some form. So why don’t you just set the stage, Kristin, for what we’re going to talk about today.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  04:09

I’d love to. And I’ll start by saying this isn’t about an expertise. It’s more around one of my passions is being a constant student and learning out loud. And so going into the space as an entrepreneur, it’s always a way for me to shortcut your nerdiness. Like I’ve done the research that you don’t have to hear some quick highlights and let’s have a little bit of fun and test it and see what applies to our life because there’s no universal outlay to say this is how you can be productive or be healthier, because that’s very individualized. But when we lean into science, whether it’s psychological science or biology, you can start to see the things that light up for you. And so, this particular topic of chronobiology really is going to take us back to what I call our factory settings. There’s a lot of other elements out there that is social conditioning and the rest of it but chronobiology is really how you are you.

MARK WRIGHT  05:04

Okay, so let’s jump right in. Um, I’m having a flashback to Econ 103 at Wazoo, Friday afternoon, 3 PM. Falling asleep in, in absolute pain. Uh, is this what we’re talking about? Our body clock?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  05:21

It is. It’s going to be really around where you feel naturally more at ease to do certain activities during the day. And we all know that our days have a lot of variables to them. So, before I get into the nerdy science part, let’s make this interactive here because then the listeners can play along as well. So how many of you would say, and you can say it out loud since I know we’re doing video and audio, are a, either an early bird, a night owl, or that middle, like I’m, I’m not super, super early, but I’m in there. So, Tamar, what would you say that you are?

TAMAR MEDFORD  05:56

Definitely an early bird.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  05:58

Okay. Mark?

MARK WRIGHT  06:01

Uh, definitely a night owl.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  06:03

Okay. Alysse?

ALYSSE BRYSON  06:04

I’m on the perch with Mark, also a night owl.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  06:09

I love it. Libby?

LIBBY SUNDGREN  06:11

Early bird.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  06:13

Early bird. And Elan.

ELAN OLSEN  06:15

I’m the unicorn in the middle. I think, uh, you’ve described it as the third bird. That’s me.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  06:22

Yeah. Well, and we are gonna see as we go along, and that’s why would love your participation, how it shows up for each of us a little differently. Um, my early bird might be different than Tamar’s, but it really will show as we get into the biology about how we still then follow similar patterns. And then back to that just being our, our hard wiring. We can absolutely adapt to different ages and stages of our life. Uh, Libby with young children or classes, Mark times that we’ve been in jet lag. We can absolutely function as humans, but you’ll see where it’s easier for you to get things done faster. And that’s the revelation part of chronobiology. So, I’ll show here and kind of walk through visually three stages. This is a lot of this is going to be very generic to start and then pay attention to where your brain starts to say, that sounds like me. And this particular framing that I’m using, chronobiology has been around for a long time, the study of all of us, but I’m specifically referencing here a book by Daniel Pink called when this about scientific secrets. So, we can always put that in the show notes for those who want to get. extra nerdy with me. But what I’m going to show you here is three stages that we all operate and cycle through. It just depends on when and how often we visit them. And so those stages are going to be called a peak, a trough and recovery. The peak, I’ll get into when here, but let’s just define it. The peak is when you are at your fastest, your most natural. People might call that, hey, my caffeine has kicked in. It’s kind of like, I’m ready to go. I’m over my slump. Like you’ve got my attention, not for very long, but you’ve got it. Things are a little bit quicker. You’ve got your answers than the trough. That’s going to be mark you in a class Friday afternoon at 3 PM. That’s where it feels like you’re walking through quicksand a little bit. You can still do it but it’s that’s where your expense report takes you 45 minutes to do, you’re like click, click, click. It’s where we’re easily distracted It’s where we’re like, oh, I think I I think I need another dose of caffeine or carbohydrates and then a recovery period That’s more of our cognitive happy hour like I can return and be more socially oriented but probably best for me not to edit, uh, heavy things or drive heavy machinery. So those are kind of three, three elements of our day, how we move through them. We all move through them, and we all alter them with artificial means, stimulus from blue lights and of course caffeine and the rest of it, but they’re natural circadian rhythms within our bodies. So, questions on that before I keep going. Does anybody feel like they don’t understand what those three things are? Feel like they don’t have one?

ELAN OLSEN  09:10

Kristin, I was wondering if you could define for us circadian rhythm.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  09:14

Yeah, great question. That is just a natural processes and biology that we go through in the course of the day when our hunger comes up where melatonin gets released from our neurotransmitters and we start to get sleepy. It’s the different biochemical signals that happened throughout the course of and in a day here, I’ll say a 24-hour swing. When I get into the stages here, as we’re going to talk to in our chronobiology, that’s going to be more your waking hours. So, thank you for letting me clarify that as this conversation goes on. So, here’s where I’m going to take us back through. If we know that we have peak, if we know we have times where we are in our best mood, we have the most amount of energy because I’ve heard on previous episodes, it’s not always time management. It’s energy management. And that is absolutely where chronobiology comes in. We all get the same gift of time throughout the course of the day. How that energy is spent though can wildly vary. And the reason I love bringing this information to teams and military groups and universities is it really can help you all unlock how to get the best out of each of you individually and collectively, instead of that, we’re all going to have conformity and do the same thing in the same hours. One of the best things about culture and the evolution of the workplace is we’ve seen how individual talent and efficiency can benefit the company and the team. So, the peak is going to be where you are your rockstar self. And so, and we all do go through troughs, and they show up in different ways. And then where can we come together for that recovery? As I walk through a normal swing, I’m going to do it on the course of early birds and by early birds. So, Tamar, you were one. Give me an example of when do you get up in the morning in general?

TAMAR MEDFORD  10:59

Usually about 5, 5:30.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  11:02

And when do you feel like you are in your peak?

TAMAR MEDFORD  11:07

Around 6:30ish.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  11:09

Okay. Do you feel that you ever have a trough?

TAMAR MEDFORD  11:13

I do. Um, usually around noon. I can feel it like this afternoon now. I’m, I’m kind of in that.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  11:21

You’re like, I haven’t heard a word you said, lady.

TAMAR MEDFORD  11:22

Yes. Eyes are kind of glazed over right now, but yes, I definitely notice it like in the morning and I can get into a flow state. I mean, there was times where I would wake up at 3:30 and email Alysse here, and Alysse would be our night owl and email me back, so, you know.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  11:41

And that’s a great example of the baton passing of efficiency of a team. Not that I would necessarily recommend those hours per se. However, uh, that’s, that’s an element too. So, when I walk through this particular swing, I’m doing it from the framing of an early bird. So, night owls, I’m still coming back for you. But 80% of people are more early oriented, meaning that they’re somewhere in the swing using tomorrow’s reference of a, a 5 AM to a 7 or 8 AM wake up that meaning they naturally or they can adjust quickly to starting their day within that swing. Um, and it’s not a right or wrong. I want to say that right up front because people love to get competitive about this. It’s the same as saying it’s just a preference like right hand or right or left hand. That’s being just kind of our genetic makeup. That’s the hardware component to it. So that doesn’t mean that Mark can’t attend an 8 AM meeting, it just may not be his peak. And the more that we understand that, the more we can really leverage each other’s natural talents. But since 80% of the population tends to be more early oriented, and let’s not forget that academia and, uh, corporate workplaces have completely skewered us that way as well. So, there’s had to be a lot of adaptation. And in fact, here’s for my night owls. Most night owls are able to have longer extended periods of focus because they are more cognitively ambidextrous. They’ve had to be to fit into an early bird’s world. And so most, Alysse was giving me an example earlier, she might have two different periods of peak or Mark could have extended periods of focus, or somebody mentioned flow earlier. That’s because of the muscle development that you have put on top of all of your natural chronobiological elements and that just gives you additional insight to your own superpowers. That’s the beauty of understanding chronobiology. If you have any questions, just put your hand up. Otherwise, I’ll just keep nerding out loud and then we’ll keep going.

MARK WRIGHT  13:45

What I think is interesting about this is that you could audit any of our computers and our cell phones in terms of text messages and immediately discover what we are because at least we’ll go on these, like. You know, late evening binges, where she’s researching something or, or creating something. And it’s like, for hours and hours and hours, it’s like, oh my gosh. It’s like, at least that’s your sweet spot, isn’t it? Like 9 pm to, well, however late you stay up.

ALYSSE BRYSON  14:15

It definitely is, but it’s my second one of the day. So, um, one of the things that I’ve noticed when I, when I’m just talking creativity, I’m not talking about meetings and proposals and tasks and, and those kinds of things. But when I’m trying to channel my creativity, my, I have a sweet spot in the morning, right? When I get up, uh, Dan calls them shower thoughts. I, it’s usually when I’m brushing my teeth, but yes, I’m bathroom activities first thing in the morning. That’s when the ideas start flowing in. Um, and, and I can ride that usually for a couple of hours. And then, yeah, somewhere around noon, one, two, it, you guys are still laughing at the bathroom joke, aren’t you? I’ve completely lost you. Okay. But so, then I definitely hit into a trough, right? And many times, I got into this habit during the pandemic of taking a nap in the afternoon. Um, Sometimes I set an alarm, sometimes I don’t, but I have, I can fall asleep literally anywhere. Uh, but I will definitely come back around in the evening and if I sit down to start doing something around 8 or 9, or even the other night, I had worked all day and was like, walked away from the computer, went to go watch TV, and it was about 10, 10.”30 at night, I guess like this idea just slammed me in the face. And I got back to the computer, and I was writing, and I don’t, you know, 1, 2 o’clock in the morning.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  15:39

Yeah, and those are such great examples, because a couple things happened there. Now, I’m gonna try, I’m gonna try to keep my, my nerdness in check, because we can always go on this subject another time. But you mentioned at least the early morning. A lot of that probably comes from your sleep rhythms. So, the brain has two very important filtration systems that happen when we sleep. There there’s many stages of sleep, but deep sleep, that is when we process through, and our body goes into almost like a paralysis. It’s when we get rid of a lot of our physical toxins, a lot of our stress. It’s a very, very important filter for our bodies. The second filter is our AM that is dream sleep, deep sleep tends to happen in the first half of our sleep. We should have a whole separate episode on sleep. That’s a whole different conversation and dreams tend to happen more in the second half. So, it wouldn’t surprise me at least when you say you wake up and you have these ideas because you’re probably really attuned into that. That is how our brain processes information especially, um, multi-sensory information, colors, sounds, ideas. I had something a few days ago where I woke up with an idea for a client presentation. It was, I must’ve been working through it in my dreams. So, the fact that your peak comes means that you’re, you’re probably connected to some of that and that after a nap or after a rest period, a siesta that you’re having, it’s probably more of an extended recovery, good mood, really happy to do kind of creative outlets, probably more easily distracted in the evening, during that second period, then the first, like you wouldn’t want to do your taxes that late at night, but that type of I’m willing to do it, I’m willing to have that creative outlet, like mental finger paint, and a lot of that’s related to our sleep cycles as well.

MARK WRIGHT  17:24

Interesting. So, Kristen, how many companies have recognized the fact that we all are all different when it comes to our chronobiology and, and what are they doing? Are you seeing some, some evolution take place in the workforce?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  17:37

To an extent, I think that COVID became a mile marker for companies to understand that the traditional container of time isn’t universally allotted, and that people could get things done hybrid, remote, asynchronous versus that old adage of management by walking around. You’re not productive until you’re sitting at your desk. I think there’s also the inclusion and equity components of education we’ve had over the last 20ish years, plus multilingual, multicultural, and a globalization of that. So, we all have different offices or colleagues that can work in different places. So, I would say that the people who are having the competitive advantages are learning to tip into it. I’ve spent a lot of time in tech, and I think that they’ve really been able to appreciate that developers can do coding at different times, not when the meetings are always happening. So, there is a realization, but it’s slow, like a lot of, like a lot of adaptive change to be able to say, what if we double-clicked on this and really were able to unlock it? What if we could just give it to Alysse and let her go while Tamar is sleeping and then you get more bang for it. Not take all of our people, put them into expensive meetings and then just let them have atrophy. Everybody’s nodding. They’re like, please no more meetings or less meetings, fewer meetings.

ALYSSE BRYSON  19:01

It’s interesting that you say that, I, I, in the workplace that I’m in now with all of these lovely sidekicks, the way that we handle our meetings and our meeting cadence is wildly different than what I am used to from the corporate worlds that I left in traditional marketing and advertising. And you know, I used to be in a world where there were, I went to all these meetings, but nothing ever got done. Um, but we have meeting cadence where, um, we have one on ones, we have. our community development meeting every week. We have our BEATS WORKING meeting every week, and the work is getting done inside the meetings. And so, I just liked hearing what you had to say about that because I’m starting to approach what happens inside meetings and planning for the meetings to get work done inside the meetings. It’s just not something I’d ever dealt with in that way before. Is that making sense? Am I making sense?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  19:56

It absolutely is. Absolutely, because I think that that’s an element we also saw in scholastic adaptation during COVID. I’ll give you an example, I do a lot of research for neurodiversity just as part of my personal life and then as part of doing, um, facilitation and adult learning. And I was learning a lot about ADHD. And I know you’ve had other experts on within that, but when schools went to asynchronous, or charter schools started having students do work contained and didn’t have homework like that. You didn’t go home and then finish your math. You did the math in that unit, or they extended the classroom time to not be 40 minutes, but an hour and the work got done in the classroom. They were seeing a higher rise in people who were traditionally pegged as low-performing students. And it went back to attention focus the time of the class. One of the things I wish I had known when I was picking my college classes, probably around the same time as Mark is, wait, can, can we have econ at a different time when I’m more like alert to it? And all of the research and then this grand massive experiment of a pandemic has showed us that some brains are going to be better to do it self-contained instead of then go home. And then you’ve got limited blood sugar, you’ve got the, um, the tech brain drain, the cognitive brain drain, and then trying to do algebra at nine o’clock at night, unless that was more your wiring. So exactly how you said that Alysse, the more that we start to understand when we’re at our best, we can then communicate and advocate for that. And then that continues to unlock a lot of different hidden pockets that people just thought were a deficiency in certain areas.

MARK WRIGHT  21:36

Yeah, Kristin, we’ve talked about this on other episodes of the BEATS WORKING podcast that there’s a shift among enlightened leaders that is going from managers who simply watch the clock and make sure that Bob is at his desk from nine to five and managers who actually just look at productivity and output. And what’s interesting about this new flexible work schedule that we all have is that I find that eight to 10 at night is when I’m really productive. And I so, you know, I’ll like, you know, do stuff during the day, maybe take a longer break during the day, but then 7 to 10, 8 to 11, something like that at night, I’ll have really a lot of creativity and it feels good to work at that time. So, a good part of my day happens then and it’s nice to have that flexibility.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  22:23

I want to touch on something that you just said. It feels good to work at that time because you’re in your zone or your flow, and it feels good because you’re probably performing. It’s you are not scheduled in a zoo. Okay, it’s 2 PM Mark this is when you need to do that Strat plan or record that element. And I’ll give you a different example as, as a word nerd. We need to stop looking at, um, output, time spent as output versus efficiency. So, if we go to a meeting, and if my expertise is in words and writing, I can do in 15 minutes what other people can do in 45 minutes. I shouldn’t be penalized for that. We should then liberate that and unpack it and break apart the Lego set. Stopped saying, which is what I think the new gig economy and the rest of like the choice and the quiet quitting, it’s, you’re now, I’m just gonna sit here for 45 minutes while the rest of you were doing work and now I’m gonna be disengaged I’m gonna be checking out. I’m quietly quitting, but I’m on the clock And I think that that’s one of the core elements of culture and engagement that we’re overlooking is you may have me in body like sitting here, but you’re holding me captive, but I’ve, I’ve left you already and you don’t even know it.

ALYSSE BRYSON  23:40

Mark, I’m curious if you um, if you, your sweet spot being in the evening, has it always been like that for you, or, I mean, you used to sit on an anchor desk, and that was when you were on air for well over a decade, almost two, so is, I bet, I’m sure that plays a part of it, but I’m curious is if you were always that way, or if you came to be that way based off of your previous place of employment.

MARK WRIGHT  24:08

It’s interesting that I did morning shows for about half my career, which was literally getting up at 3, 2:30 in the morning and then having to be really on for four hours from about 5 AM to 9 AM. Um, not being a morning person, I literally would just come into work and slam a few cups of coffee and, and you, you learn how to turn it on, but I think I’ve always been that late chronotype. So, when I went to the evening shows, it just felt a lot more natural, but yeah, you can trick your body. I mean, the thought of unemployment is great motivation too, when you have to be chirpy on a morning, on a morning news program.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  24:44

Well, it is funny how you said trick our bodies, because if we’re saying that chronobiology is that, that natural out of the box, this is who we are, then, um, our environment becomes the software. It’s everything that we put on top of it in employment and opportunities or the stages of our, our life. That is absolutely that we, we learn to adapt to, and we can, we can do exactly that. We can adapt, but it’s that natural fit. It’s the, it’s where you start saying, oh, well, this BEATS WORKING. When I became a journalist and I was like, wait, I can get paid to ask people questions and tell stories. I thought that was just like, yeah, Kristin at a cocktail party and that’s that naturalness. That’s really where you feel empowered for who you are not conforming to who you’re supposed to be. That’s the liberating part.

MARK WRIGHT  25:34

That’s awesome. Libby, you had a question.

LIBBY SUNDGREN  25:36

I’m curious if I’m an early bird and Mark is a night owl and when I look at the um the scheduling of the, you know, the times for creativity and problem solving and rejuvenation for those um two types how, how do I schedule a meeting that’s going to be most productive and the best for two different types, I guess, like how, how do you do that?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  26:05

It’s such a great question. So, I’m going to show a chart and then we will attach this to show notes for anybody who’s, who’s super interested in this. The first thing I’ll say is that regardless of what chronotype you are, we also need to recognize our digital dependency and the very quick deterioration attention has regardless of when you’re in your peak. So, when you’re sitting in back-to-back meetings, regardless again of your chronotype, you’ve got about two hours maximum for your cognitive capacity, especially when you’re, and I don’t just mean actually sitting, but when you are within an environment of meetings or, or classes or coursework, anything that’s just kind of repetitive or where you’re not being able to take, have some agency and some choice. Even the most dedicated people have about 2 hours before, it’s just gonna sink. I think post-COVID, they’re probably saying that’s more towards 90 minutes. So, I just want to say that of managing times schedules, but there is an overlay that we can look at. And again, this doesn’t even take into consideration time zone variables, um, and the rest of it. So, you can, we’ve all tried to schedule lots of different things with people anywhere, but there is a crossover time of when you can have a lot of conversation. It tends to be more of, and I’m saying this so everybody in the same time zone. So, framing that it is in the, the mid, the midafternoon is when you can bring people together and think of that as, um, the mental happy hour, as I mentioned earlier, you’ve got your early bird people who are coming back into their recovery. They’ve probably had their snack. Alysse has probably had a nap. Um, and then the night owls. So, the night owls, the early bird people will go through, they’ll typically start with their peak. They go in that order. They start with a peak about two to three hours after they wake up. About seven hours after they wake up is when they’re in their trough, which for Tamar when she said at noon was bang on, and then that recovery in that three to five period of like, okay, I can talk to other humans again. So, when you reverse it, the night owls tend to go and you all tell me here, you’re my focus group. They tend to come in at their trough, if they’re waking up on our normal schedule, the, 8, 9, 10. They’re a bit more in their trough. Like I’m here, but you’re not getting the best of me. And then they’re going to go probably more into recovery. And this is going to be the early afternoon and then more in their peak later when the rest of us stop bothering them. So that crossover is when the early birds are in their happy hour and um, um, the night owls are coming into theirs as well. So, the midafternoon ish coming out of that. So, part of why this is a fun conversation is a lot of you can start comparing what that means to you and wherever possible you can take ownership or advocacy to say, um, hey Tamar we have a one on one scheduled at 1 o’clock on Thursday. Would you be open to moving that to a different time? Now you can use that. I’m going to be more focused. I’m going to be more at my peak, or you can just be an advocate. My schedule would better align if we could do it at this time. And there’s a lot of empowerment there too. Elan.

ELAN OLSEN  29:16

I was actually going to ask you about if you have advice for advocating for yourself and your chronotype, um, I am fortunate that I know that’s an open conversation that I can have with any one of my coworkers, but I don’t think a lot of people, um, I like to say in unredeemed workspaces, um, feels that kind of ability to express themselves or their needs or their cognitive ability without feeling like nobody’s going to want to hear it. Do you have advice for anybody, um, looking to advocate for their themselves in that way?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  39:59

Sure. And part of why I lead with science is that the data will set you free. And so, when you’re able to say, um, hey, I’m looking to maximize my schedule to be more efficient. And I’m curious if we can move this meeting to X time, if it’s a one on one or I know, I know for me in large corporate, there was a lot of meetings you go to and only 10 minutes of it is relevant. So, some of that became, hey, meeting organizer. Um, I’m able to join for the first half an hour and then I need to drop off. I think the tendency, and this is a very Western culture is to want to over explain. If you’re walking in everybody’s environments different, but if you walk in and you’re like, hey, so then on Tuesdays at this time, and then like, you’ve already lost people. We can ask advocacy is just a way to ask. It is not please write a dissertation on why you need an exception made for you. And I think we get certain cultures and certainly genders who want to say, um, please make an exception versus just at least do you mind if we move this meeting on Tuesdays to a different time? We don’t have to give everything after the comma. So, you can, of course, based on your workplace, be able to say, and I’ll give you an example. I worked in corporate for a long, long time, and I know that I’m an early bird. But so, what I thought that that meant was I’ll schedule all my meetings when I am really vigilant and really kind of have all my energy. And then I’ll have the whole afternoon to do the work. And what I didn’t realize before this research was that was when I had so much less of it. So, the more I learned to protect my peak, so later as people come along, I’m like, oh, I don’t take meetings before 10 AM. And I just said it that way, right? Um, I, or I take my meetings. I see a lot of people do this between these hours. And if there is any pushback, then it’s to say, well, that’s my productive time. That’s my focus time. Somebody said earlier, that’s, that’s when I’m in my flow. I think there’s a different vernacular now that people are accepting in terms of, hey, if you want me in a strategy meeting, it better not be 4 PM on a Thursday. I mean, I’ll be there, but you may get, may not get the best of me. So, the recapping the best ways to put that forward is first to just ask period. Put a request out there, full stop, and it doesn’t have to be a whole thing and why you’re a special flower is just not, and where you’re in different circumstances, sometimes your advocacy shows opportunities for other. I remember one time canceling a meeting with the CEO of the company and as I was at the desk talking to his admin, I said, well, she said why are you cancelling this? I said it’s my son’s birthday, I won’t be working on that day. He was three at that time. And I remember later, somebody walked up to me and said, that was really bold. And I was like, was it, or was it, and he happened to walk out at that same time. He’s like, that’s fantastic. That’s awesome. What are you guys doing? And it just allowed permission in a different way that sometimes we carry around things that we think are expectations that are really just invisible in our own head.

ALYSSE BRYSON  32:59

Something that reminded me of Kristin, because for those of you that don’t know, Kristin has been a mentor to me when I, when I, way back when, when I went from being an account executive and stepped into management, Kristin became my mentor and it started with, you know, get a headshot sister and join a board but it evolved into so much more and I can remember way back then we would go for these walks and she and, and, and one of the nuggets that I got from her is stop apologizing for everything like just stop, right? So, listen for these nuggets that she throws out because it sounds, they’re so simple like the stop everything after the comma because I I mean as soon as you were saying that I was like oh, how many times am I telling it, you know, going on and on and on when it’s just like, I could just be more concise. And that’s just so much more respectful for them and for me. So, thank you for the nuggets.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  33:53

Oh, and this, this all comes from practice and recognition, nowhere from expertise. It’s an ongoing thing that, that we all are working on. Um, especially as we got more digital and remote, we, we need to be more clear with our, first we need to have clarity of our own needs and stop saying that we have a deficiency. Have you ever walked into a room and you’re like, what was I doing here? Or you’re sitting at your computer and you’re like, what was I, what was I supposed to be doing and which tab was I opening? And we sit there and think, man, I, I need more sleep. I need more caffeine instead of, oh, I must be in my trough. Oh, this is biological. I am not some subhuman who isn’t able to sustain 12 to 14 hours a day, bringing science, bringing biology, bringing information, psychology allows us to accept that we are fluid human beings and we’re not robots. And that I think is one of the best efforts of the last few years of to say there are different ways that things can exist.

MARK WRIGHT  34:56

Kristin, I know you’re a big fan of John Medina, the Seattle Brain Scientist, and I mean, he flat out said if you wanted to create an environment that was absolutely the opposite of what the brain needs to function properly, it would be the cubicle and the workspace and the classroom. So, what’s interesting is that what you’re explaining about our biology is that you know, back when we were all just hunting and gathering all day long, these, these were great rhythms. It was great to, to have these times of rest and these times of activity, but in this completely artificial environment that is only really the function of the last 100 years of human existence. You’re right we need to just be okay by saying, this ain’t my time right now. I’m taking a nap and I’ll get back to you. Or…

KRISTIN GRAHAM  35:45

Yeah, you’ll get the better part of me in another time. And I think what’s really important about what you said that too, from kind of the cubicle environment is that the few dictated the norm for the many. And any variance from that was seen as a defect. And there’s a great adage that says, ask a fish to climb a tree and it’ll think it’s stupid. And so, within that and the, the broader understanding now of how we are wired, how we can be enabled, I think the few now should be getting out of the way so that people can come forward and say, hey, I can do this and I, but I can do this over here. And we’ve really begun to see our competitive advantage at a large scale, gone are the days of, we just have to force fit it all in here and some will continue. I can think of big banks right now and all this return to work demands and mantras and you can continue to lead with fear-based model, but now that we have seen the world transform and everything that’s transpired, we are going to have a talent renaissance and the people who forge ahead are going to be the innovators and the thinkers, not the meeting attenders and the note takers. Tamar.

TAMAR MEDFORD  37:08

Yeah, this just made me think of, you know, if corporations could realize that when their employees are working can make such a big difference. I had an example where I worked for a company and because I’m an early bird and I dealt with mostly people, customers on the East Coast, I would always be in at least two to three hours before some of my coworkers were. But it’s interesting because of how everybody is so groomed in corporate. You know at 4:30 when I’d already worked three extra hours that day and also, you know my statistics and I logged everything I was very organized but I got told there’s this perception that you’re not working hard enough and I was so baffled because if you looked at my numbers It said I was doing I was doubling the sales from their previous year but yet they you know, they made me at a certain point feel like you’re not working hard enough and it was a perception from some of the other employees that were actually more night owls, right? They would come in an hour late and they would stay later and, you know, working, doing the work that we do here at WORKP2P, it’s fabulous. Like I can wake up super early and start working and no one’s gonna sit and judge me if I decide to leave at three, right? And Mark can text me at eleven that he’s done something, and I’ll get back to him at five. Like, I just think it’s fantastic. And, you know, I, I feel like there’s way more productivity from all of us because we do have that freedom here.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  38:41

And I think that’s so true because back in the 70s, the 80s and 90s, they would hire in all these management consultants and gurus who were typically Western men and say, this is now the way that we’re going to do it. This is a Tom Peters way. And I love, and they’ve been great educators but what fails in that is that a workplace is not a jar of peanut butter. You can’t take one thing and spread it across everybody else. Because first of all, nut allergies. And it just doesn’t work for it. So, a lot of what is coming forward here is that element of different is strategic, instead of that, you’re just not trying hard enough. So, when I say that chronobiology becomes just kind of us naturally, if we can peel back more of that software or at least do the software updates more often, because software can be what you just said, it could be the generational elements of it. I remember a leader in one of my first corporate jobs saying, I know everybody who’s here by 8 AM. Well, so I made sure to get there at 8 AM all the time until I had my first baby. And then it was that doesn’t mean I’m not up more than you all. And that gets into expectations or future resentments and that absolutely bleeds into corporate culture. And I heard from one of your previous episodes that when you are punishing the outliers, that’s different generational trauma. And so that it’s always that search for fairness instead, which is going to be a race to the bottom. And that’s what cultures, unhealthy cultures do, they look around and say, why do they get that? I, I have been in so many culture meetings where people are like, why should we have a pet policy? If I don’t have a pet, I want $10 extra credit on something else. When you’re running around trying to get extra credit, you miss the liberty of choice. And in a talent Renaissance, choice is what is going to be the best benefits brochure of all. But they just have to get out of their own way of thinking and say, what would you actually want? I’ve seen companies put forward millions of dollars into recognition programs. And it was like, instead of having a, another mug or a t-shirt with a logo on it, can I have an Amazon gift card? Can I leave two hours early? Can I go to my yoga class and not feel like crap? So, there’s a lot of, um, overlay that we cannot, culture cannot be decided in a conference room. It just can’t. It’s how you live it and breathe it every single day. And that’s where the choice economy comes. You can have every pretty poster because Lord knows I wrote them and made them all in my time. And then you still are the employee who walks by and feels like crap. It’s like, do you have a bridal shower for one person, but you don’t celebrate the same-sex couple getting married? That’s culture. Do you say that you have balance and then you schedule 8 AM and 5 PM meetings? That’s culture. Do you have a ping pong table, but then you expect people to work through lunch? That’s culture. I don’t care how pretty your word nerd made it all sound. It’s how you experience it, and it’s also what you hire and fire over.

MARK WRIGHT  41:46

I feel like you’re one of us, Kristin, already. I mean, just the wisdom that you have learned over the years and actually put into practice is just so refreshing. And it’s, we just really need this stuff in the workplace right now. I recently met a guy who works for a large tech company. He lives in New York City. And they, they went to a, a, an unlimited, you know, time off policy. And he said, it’s not really an unlimited time off policy. There’s still this scrutiny and guilt and sort of shaming and oversight that makes it absolutely not an unlimited time off policy. So how do you feel at work? I think that’s what I think that’s what we’re all trying to get to. And if you don’t feel great at work, go somewhere else because you deserve something so much better.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  42:35

That’s, it’s such an important thing to say that that feel word because you, the best employee engagement survey, and I’ve done a ton of them, would be to call up people on Sunday at 7 PM and say, how you doing? You excited about tomorrow? So, your engagement is how your stomach feels on Sunday. Everything else is window dressing.

ALYSSE BRYSON  43:00

That’s so funny that you say that, because Libby and I have been working together now for a long time. And, you know, we don’t, we don’t have the Sunday Scaries anymore, at least I don’t think we do, do we Libby? But like, Sunday Scaries are a real thing. And, uh, and I’m, I’m just really grateful that I’m in a place now that I have not had a Sunday Scary in a very long time. But that is a, that is a telltale, is that Sunday night, are you excited about the week ahead? Or are you like ugh.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  43:33

And listen, work is still work. I mean, there’s still, there’s still the, the grind that goes into everything, but I think I was about three months into being an entrepreneur and I’d spent 20 years in corporate and it was a very good, um, Gen X or I, I loved it, you know, checked every box. Um, but it was about three months into it. And I realized that everything on my calendar that day was something I was genuinely excited about. And that’s, that’s the joy. It’s, and there’s still days where you have to do just administrivia. That’s just part of life. You can live in a beautiful mansion and you’re still going to have to like, turn off the lights. So, there’s still that element of it, but um, really being able to look forward and see yourself in the work. It’s going to change, and you’re seeing it also back into schools. I know for, for my kids who were in high school during COVID, that they started coming out and saying you can return, or you can continue online. And that allowed learners, right? Different brains to have a choice versus think about the night owl, um, kids, people who are in school settings who are having to take, get on the bus at 7 AM, Mark, that was probably you.

MARK WRIGHT  44:46

Oh, it’s terrible. And, you know, a lot of high school kids are sort of natural night owls at that time of their lives. And it is excruciating and we’re expecting them to learn at 7 AM, 8 AM at school?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  44:57

And then you want to, there’s been so much with research of you can track back test scores to at what time the core curriculum is being taught, reading, writing, arithmetic, and if those were early classes and the kids who are family, if you flip it and that’s the last period of the day, or you finished the homework in that self-contained class, all of a sudden test scores went up and people who thought the fish who thought they couldn’t climb a tree all of a sudden were like, wait a minute, I’m smart, and a lot of that was scheduling. So, there’s, there’s a ton to the way that society has deemed schedules that needs to be rewritten.

MARK WRIGHT  45:34

Well, Kristin, this has been fantastic. I’d love to hear just what the team has taken from this conversation. I’ll go around with the team and, and I’ll give you the final word, Kristin. Tamar, what’s the takeaway for you on this discussion?

TAMAR MEDFORD  45:47

Well, it just, I mean, it makes me appreciate our team so much more. Um, you know, just talking about that and reliving times where I wasn’t in a place where my early bird was accepted, right? And always having that guilt and the Sunday, like, ugh, I, you know, I, I felt that, and I don’t have that anymore. You know, yes, there’s, there’s weeks where we have projects that are due and stuff, but you know, really leaning into my mornings now and not feeling like you know, I have to be later. I can own that I’m an early bird and if I’m up at 3:30 AM and that’s where I get my creativity. Like I gotta just run with it.

MARK WRIGHT  46:26

That’s awesome. Elan.

ELAN OLSEN  46:28

I love what you said about expectation being a future resentment. Um I think just as a person, I carry around a lot of those invisible expectations, um, just from my own personal experience with life, so that felt really good to know that’s not an isolated experience to me. Um, I also wanted to mention how much I love your video library of brain snacks. That was really helpful for me, particularly, um, the distraction video and the science of notifications, um, and we, we touched a little bit on in our conversation today about how you’re just much more easily distracted, especially when it’s a welcome distraction, something that you like. Um, I’m married to somebody with ADD, so he just walks right in and I’m like, yeah. Okay. So, I, that resonated with me so much and all six of those videos are so helpful. So, I had super encouraged listeners to go check out, um, the brain snacks on unlock the brain.

MARK WRIGHT  47:37

Aright. Libby.

LIBBY SUNDGREN  47:38

Yeah. I, I think it is a good, you know, reminder for me about when I am most productive, even though I know it in the back of my head, but just to really keep that in mind, but also a good reminder for me to. Think about when I’m scheduling any kind of work time or meetings or check-ins with other people on our team to, to, you know, have those different chronotype schedules and, you know, peaks and troughs and rejuvenations, just to, to keep those in mind, so that I’m being, you know, I’m getting the best out of the people that I’m working with, too, and they’re getting the best of me, but, um, that I’m, you know, also respecting, you know, what, when they’re gonna be at their best, I guess, so.

MARK WRIGHT  48:31

Alright, Alysse.

ALYSSE BRYSON  48:33

Sorry, I was taking a nap. No, just kidding. Um, you know, it’s funny, uh, Libby definitely drives a lot of the schedules and, and, and especially over the years, she, unless she absolutely has to, she would know that it’s never to put me on a 7 AM meeting. Like, it’s just not a good idea. I mean, there’s just a big chance I won’t show up, quite honestly. Um, but no, I found this really interesting. I love hearing about all of this kind of stuff and I think my big takeaway today is how the workplace is evolving and hopefully, if you, if you’re a listener, you’re in a place where, uh, you’re in a work environment that is open to these kinds of conversations about talking about what our needs are, like I’m at my peak or, um, you know, just, and, and being able to, to have flexibility with your, your workflow to make, um, the work, work when, when you’re at your optimum. And, and I think my big takeaway today too was also in advocating for yourself, less is more. So that was a big, big aha for me today.

MARK WRIGHT  49:56

Boy, that’s, that’s interesting. You say that Alysse that’s exactly what my takeaway was, is that I love how Kristin, you’re so confident about advocating for, um, yourself and, and we should be the same as well. And it starts with understanding who we are. And understanding that we all are different, and our chronotypes may be different, and our abilities and strengths and weaknesses are all different. But if we start from that place of, of self-knowledge, and, and just grace, that, that we shouldn’t beat ourselves up. But then also, just to advocate, you know, like, like, hey, it’s my kid’s birthday. Well, no shit, you should be at home with your kid on, on your kid’s birthday. And, like, when that kid’s 20, are they really going to remember that? You know, yeah, they will. If you weren’t at their birthday, they’ll remember that. So, um, I just really appreciate the fact that, that you’re all about empowerment, but not just arbitrary empowerment. It’s about science. It’s about truth and, and being comfortable inciting that and then living better lives as a result.

ALYSSE BRYSON  50:50

I think that was, I’ll jump back in. I just want to say that was my other takeaway is, uh, when you reference like talking about the biology or the science of it and the, let the data do the talking, that, that’s a really big thing. Let the data do the talking because then you’re like, yeah, right here, it’s right here.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  51:10

And I really like how you both are framing that again because advocacy can sometimes feel like a privilege, and it can feel super uncomfortable to people. So, another way to consider that is signaling, social signaling. So, when you are putting out a meeting request to say, um, whether it’s a one-on-one, if there’s a better time of day for this, please let me know and I’ll do my best to accommodate. I’ve seen a lot of people with emails being like, I am emailing during the timeframe that works best for me. I am not expecting a response until the timeframe best works for you. And the other thing I’ve seen with meetings where there is recording is people saying there will be a replay for those who are not able to be present and it gives that ability for your travel schedule, for your life schedule, for your chronobiology to be like, I still want to be included, but I, I can now be included on my terms and I’ll touch on one thing that you just said, Mark, too. I saw a quote recently said that the only people who will remember 10 years from now that you work later, your kids. Now, whether it’s your kids or your loved ones or your families, um, I think that that goes to say that everything that we’re sacrificing today should be for the people who will remember that it was done. Thank you.

MARK WRIGHT  52:25

Well, Kristin, big snaps for a fantastic presentation. Any final thoughts about chronobiology in terms of how people who are listening might implement or understand it better? Uh, Elan talked about all the content that you have, uh, on your website, so, final word.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  52:42

I think, I think a lot of us already know those framings and we’ve already adapted to it. So just pay attention to the next time you feel like you’re going super slow and take a look at the clock. That’s going to tell you a lot more than any model or any flowchart because you’ll start to see a pattern. Same when you’re like oh my gosh, is it this time already? That’s usually an indicator of your cognitive fast lane and you’re going to switch between them and there’s no like set time and it’s going to vary from day to day, but you’ll start to see a rhythm. You are your best focus group. So, pay attention to what you’re saying. That’s your best advocate.

MARK WRIGHT  43:17

All right, Kristin, how can we get ahold of you if we want to see all that content and stay in touch?

KRISTIN GRAHAM  53:22

Come find me. I write all the time on LinkedIn, but also reach out to unlockthebrain.com. Thank you, Elan, for that plug and just kristin@unlockthebrain. I’m a big nerd, I love talking about it. So, keep me company.

MARK WRIGHT  53:34

Well, we appreciate you, Kristin. It’s always good to have you here and the sidekicks. You guys are awesome. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks. We’ll see you next time.

KRISTIN GRAHAM  53:41

Thanks, friends. Thank you. Bye

MARK WRIGHT  53:45

I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. If you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.